From Tom:
20 years ago I had 3 herniated disc's could barely walk for a year and had all the symptoms you have described. All caused from racing bicycles. Your question can you hike? My thoughts, every back problem is different you will know the days before your hike. My fix after a year of unsucessful Chiro experiences was an epidural steriod shot followed by a 12 Pack of Bud and a year of rest. Since then life has been problem free half-marathons, one-day Whitneys, on and on. Good luck and don't push it.
From Kev:
Just over two years ago I had surgery on L5 S1 for a ruptured disc. Prior to the surgery I had pain in my left leg that eventualy led to total loss of feeling from the hip down. After surgery the leg pain is gone but 2 years later and I still have numbness from the knee down to my toes. I still have pain every day in my low back and being a fireman it gets worse after fires or physical activity. I still hike, ski, climb but with constant minor pain and sometimes strong pain. I take vicodin for the pain at home but not at work. NSAIDs do nothing for me nor does chiropractic except for the short term. There are others out there with much better success than I have had so dont get discouraged. I would and could do Whitney in a heartbeat. I would call my surgery a success because I can still walk where I could barely walk before.
From Hose:
I have suffered from the same herniated disc as you for the last 6+ years. Sounds like the sciatica and numbness you endure is a little more extreme than mine but this will likely reduce with time. I used to run for training but have been reduced to walking the last few years; fortunately I live in a hilly area. I summited Whitney via the Main Trail last July 9. Since my injury I have summited Borah Peak in Idaho, Boundary Peak in Nevada, Mt. Sill, Middle Palisade, Mt. Dana, Mt Gibbs, Mt. Hoffman in the Sierras, packed in and bagged Kings Peak in Utah, got stormed off Bonney Pass in an attempt on Gannett Peak in the Winds last fall, blah, blah, blah. My point is be patient and give it some time. When CA State Disability determined that I was 27% permanently disabled I blacked out, but was backpacking again within 2 years. I also think that you should consider chiropractic treatment. I was very hesitant to seek services but found a doctor that utilises what is called low impact chiropractry; no bone-cracking neck-twisting and body-snapping. Allignment is achieved using a small instrument to, "nudge", parts back into place. All this said, I still have problems and pain, sometimes acute, but usually associated with travel, (long periods of sitting). Good luck on your Whitney attempt.
From Pink:
Have you thought about trying Pilates? It teaches you how to stabilize your spine by strengthening your core muscles. Many people with spinal problems have experienced relief - short and long term.
From WBT:
I've got similar problems, with numbness down to the knee, and am scheduled for an MRI on the 3rd. So, I'm interested in your progress.
From H Bob:
Please don't have the same reservations about having your ruptured disc surgically repaired as you might have had a few years ago. Medical science has come a long way.I know you didn't want anectodal evidence, but I do personally know of two close friends, both of whom suffered their injuries in active duty in the Marine Corps. While there is no way I'm going to be critical of the Veteran's Hospitals available, both of my buddies did extensive research and had their surgeries performed through USC Medical Center. They are relatively young men, in their early 30s, but they were becoming cripples. I could see this happening to them. And now after sucessful surgery, they are swimming, running, and definitely hiking, (Trying not to backpack with a heavy overnight pack). If your condition continues to deteriorate, consider surgery as an option, but definitely do your research as to where it will be done.
From Passin:
I will wade in now. I had the same symptoms, although confined to left leg only and deep inside left hip. Came home limping every day, almost couldn't make it inside the house. Found relief with ice packs at first. Finally went to my Dr.==referral to physical therapy for 8 weeks. Back to Dr.==referral for 8 more weeks of P.T. Finally referral to Orthopedist who worked with a Neurologist too. Neurologist took base-line "functionality" of my nerves, and was present in the O.R. during surgery to notify Dr. of any impingement during procedure. MRI showed one herniated disc, but they found two when inside. This all took place in '96. RESULT == IMMEDIATE RELIEF FROM THE PAIN. Only 2 days in hospital. Walking == GOOD, sitting == BAD. Now watch posture all the time== GOOD. Just hiked Sat. to a geocache with son and grandson, hiked to Cottonwood Lakes last August, will be 63 next month.
From K:
Ok, good to hear that you are doing better! Lets talk about the anatomy of the situation: A disc is literally a short, fat disk, consisting of an outer durable membrane, and a inner jelly-like liquid. At the back of the spine, there is a "tunnel" of bone, through which the spinal cord passes, and at each vertebrae level, a nerve leaves the cord to supply that level of the body. These "supply nerves" also pass though a bony tunnel to exit on each side of the spine, roughly at 45 deg from the back, on either side.The pathology occurs when the outer membrane of the disc ruptures, allowing some of the inner jelly to "pooch" out. If this happens in any direction OTHER than where the "supply nerves" are, at 45 deg, *there are basically NO symptoms*. HOWEVER, if the "pooching" occurs at the 45 deg angle, it traps the supply nerve against the side of the bony tunnel through which it passes, applying a crushing pressure on the nerve.This can produce two distinct syndromes: pain, by itself; or pain along with other neurologic effects, such as weakness, numbness.What will happen with time, is that the pooched out inner disc will act like jelly left on the countertop.....is will dessicate, losing it's water content, and shrinking to nothing. This takes time. The folks that are generally candidates for surgery are those with advanced or advancing neurologic signs, and those for whom the pain does not resolve in a reasonable time. This is less than one person in twenty! (of those with REAL disc pathology, most people with back pain do NOT have disc problems!) In these folks the nerve is being crushed, and permanently damaged. In people with JUST pain, it is virtually always a transient event, and will resolve on it's own, with time. However, the time frame may be a couple of months. Generally, the error made is to operate prematurely on people with pain only. While it is gratifying to see someone in significant pain lose the pain, an operated back is never the same, and the operation has significant risks. It is also gratifying to see someone recover without surgery, as occurs 95% of the time.....By the way, in our "techno-crazy" society, it is worth noting that MRI's are WAY overused. A skilled clinician can accurately diagnose a disc problem with no imaging (even rule it out). An MRI is NOT the deciding factor in going to surgery, nor in making the diagnosis....it is useful mainly in telling the surgeon where to cut, after the decision has been made. So all that having been said, it sounds like there is no reason for you to have surgery. (I DO play a doctor on TV, and am one in real life)
From KM:
It sounds like you are already feeling better - Great! And I hope that you continue down that path.I have several degenerated disks wtih the worst ones at S5-L1 and L3-L4 and had 5 or 6 epidurals, facet joint injections, radio frequency nerve cauterizations (2x) all with no results. After a diskogram ID'd that the pain was coming fom L3-L4, I had IDET (Aug. '04) with GREAT results. It can be painful and slow to recover from, but I was not interested in fusion, which is irreversable. IMO, IDET is still surgery, but it is much less invasive than the other options. Granted, that ain't a herniated disk, but some things are transferable. 1 - make SURE that your problem is coming from the herniated disk, and not from elsewhere. 2 - when your first doctor and possibly the neurosurgeon say "we won't cut for at least 6 months" listen to them even if you can't stomach the thought of living with pain for a minute longer. Sometimes the pain just does "go away" (but you already know that...) 3 - core strength, core strength, core strength and flexibility, flexibility, flexibility!!! And make sure to stretch your psoas muscle - it took me 5 physical therapists to learn this one, but once I did life got much better. 4 - yes, you will hike again. It might seem like a million years ago when you were healthy and you will never walk without pain again, but there is light at the end of the tunnel. Just take it slow getting to that light and don't aggravate what is currenly healing. I make darn sure that my pack is transferring its weight via the waist belt to my hips and not via the shoulder straps. Watch your progress. Take it slow and steady. And you will hike again. Disclaimer - This is solely based on personal experinece. I ain't a doctor, and I don't play one on TV. But I do think that I am good lookin' enough to do so..... or not.
From StC:
Now that you are better, it is time to get on a program to help prevent future occurrences of your back trouble -- strengthen your torso. In the past, I have suffered with severe back problems, but have been mostly free of problems for a number of years now. I credit that to the fact that I do situps and curls, back extensions, use a back-twisting weight machine, and several others specifically for my back. In fact, about half of my weight workout exercises are done to keep my back healthy. It really helps!
From Mar:
I ran across a book, Pain Free, by Pete Egoscue several years ago. I was having problems with carpal tunnel syndrome. Doing simple exercises, for lack of a better word, solved the problem. This past summer in training for my JMT trip I started experiencing severe knee pain. It hurt to walk at all. I purchased a new copy, not remembering who I had given the old copy and did the exercises. I was able to do the trip with no problems, at least from my knee. I got a nasty rash on the back of my calf, plant related, and hiked out at Florence Lake. The book is broken down by body part; feet, knees, shoulders, ... and backs. It focuses on balencing the muscles in the body so that each muscle is doing what its supposed to, no more or less. It may not help, everyone's situation is different, but I think it is definetly worth a try. Good Luck.
From Raf:
I'm sure that the weights and strengthening help in prevention of injuries. I use to get a real sore right knee on long downhill hikes. My father-in-law who is a former basketball coach suggested a weight regimen for strengthening the legs and since I've done it it has eliminated the knee pain completely. It also has helped give more spring to my legs when hiking up steep hills.
From Loose:
I'm sure you know but stretching is even more important than working out in avoiding injuries.The more flexible you are, the better...
From Bob:
Your excercise regimen is impressive for any age. I used to run long distances regularly to train for marathons. I recall the principle of the "light exercise week" to avoid tearing down the body and give the body a chance to rebuild. In other words, about every fourth week, if I remember correctly, I would have a week where my running mileage was significantly reduced. Maybe this applies to your type of exercises too.
From Brik:
Ken is the doctor and having experienced a bout with sciatica two years ago, I wholeheartedly concur that surgery should be only the remotest last option. Avoid it if at all possible. I got, read and applied techniques offered in a booklet "The Sciatica Relief Handbook" (Chet Cunningham) from United Research Publishers. It's got several explantions, diagrams, and especially useful exercises to strengthen muscles. Also, from another source I learned about the "tennis ball" drill where you lay flat on the floor and place a tennis ball where your back pocket would be (on whichever side is experiencing pain) then gently roll up onto the ball. If too much pain occurs, back off. This is done over a period of days until you're able to get up onto the ball and stay without pain for a minute. The drill is designed to massage the piriformis muscle which often traps the sciatic nerve and causes pain. My episode began in December, 2003 and I could barely walk, sit, get out of bed for the next four months. As has been recommended here, I did nothing. I typically exercise (a 4 mile walk/jog, stair climb, or Nordic track) four-fives times a week. So I got a case of the guilts not doing anything, but then again I simply couldn't do anything. The layoff, coupled with the floor exercises, finally let me get back to normal by the end of March, 2004. As others have said here too, as often as not the problem will go away by itself, but you've got to give the body the chance it needs to rest. Good Luck. I can see you at the top of Whitney this summer for sure.....
From NM:
Hi,I had surgery on my L5-S1 in June 2001 and it was the right decision. I have been totally pain and symptom free ever since. For months prior to the surgery I tried everything but it progressed to the point I could barely walk, could not sit. Immediately following the surgery I was pain free. I carried 45lbs+ on several trips last year, including a solo backpack/Whitney climb in early Oct. with no problems. I highly recommend the surgeon (Dr. Tim Peppers of Scripps San Diego).
From Bruin:
Knowing you just went through your last round of epidurals yesterday, I can only imagine how you're feeling today. Probably far from being on the top of your game -- and probably more than a little dejected about the whole hiking thing. One thought, though. Your back IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN YOUR LIFE right now. Your entire focus. A long-time buddy of mine (professional painter) took a spill off a ladder last year from about 30'. The good news is he stuck the landing. The bad news is that he stuck the landing ... and broke both his heels. Very painful, very slow process, but progress is being made. A friend of his is Marty McSorley (enforcer-guy of Kings hockey fame, but actually a very "normal" and caring individual), and Marty said something to him that my buddy said stuck with him throughout this ongoing process -- "your only job right now is to get well -- everything else is secondary." And it's true. The switchbacks will always be there. And while we're on that topic, keep in mind that some switchbacks are tougher than others, and even some demand the hike be interrupted. Bottom line: whatever lays ahead, you WILL get through it. With all that you've endured, especially over the last couple of years, do you have any doubt? If you do, you shouldn't. Whether Whitney's a reality this year or not, it will still be there for future attempts. Focus on the back. Continue to take care of everything you are doing, from unloading a dishwasher (yep, that simple task threw me into a sciatica episode once), to getting up from sitting, to everything else. The back is the focus. (You know better than anyone how important your back is.) One other thing -- based solely upon your Hiking Organization 101 MegaList, you're a planner (7 P's). Great attribute. But you don't have to "decide" on Whitney for a good couple of months, really. The true training will kick into high gear by May, and your crew will just need to make due until then. So, relax for now, get as comfortable as possible, take in a few basketball games on the TV (Go Bruins), get as close to 100% as you can, and then decide on whether this year's attempt is possible. You're gonna make it.
From KK:
I have one too, plus a disc that has deteriorated. The pain forced me to bail out early of a group hike in the Grand Canyon, and I set aside plans to arrange a large group hike in the Sierra, presuming I might not even be able to get to the trailhead. This was two or three years ago. I went through several physicians looking for a happy answer—pretty much what you have done. Not liking the prospect of surgery, and deciding that shots weren’t a long-term option, I decided just to do what physical activities I could, taking a generic form of Aleve daily. I resumed modest weight training at home. It wasn’t too long before I found I could mountain bike for a couple of hours before the discomfort became too much, even though I couldn’t stand erect on my feet for 10 minutes without my back annoying me. (I suppose the forward lean of a bicycle puts less strain on my discs.) Then I found that I could begin hiking again, provided I used a light pack. My discs have not improved, I’m sure (they don’t un-herniate on their own), and I have daily discomfort, but I spent three days this month backpacking in the Grand Canyon and ended up with sore legs but not a sore back.
From SteveM.
Yes indeed. I was one of the lucky ones. I'll give you my history and what solved my problems. I can't say that they'd necessarily be the same, but from experience, I can say, I can't think of any worse pain than a herniated disc and a pinched nerve. I did have a herniated disc and pinched nerves.
Initially, I weighed 245lbs. At 5'8 tall, that's a lot of excess baggage. One day, woke up with excruciating pain down my left butt cheek. Went to the chiropractor. Had visited the chiropractor about 2 times every couple of years. My back would tend to lock up. Chiropractor made it worse. The pain ended up down the back of my entire leg anytime I stood straight up. Ended up getting 2 epidurals at Loma Linda and one at Kaiser. One of the epidurals gave me relief for about a week or two, then the pain came back. I suffered for 10 months. I did find that if I leaned slightly forward, like I was leaning on a shopping cart, the pain would subside, so I started riding a bicycle and dieted. In 9 months, I lost 75 lbs. One morning I stood up and the pain was gone. Scared the crap out of me, but it disappeared for 5 years. I kept the weight off and have done a pretty good job of it since.
After 5 years of peace (and pain free) I started getting an uncomfortable feeling on the front of my thigh--on the opposite leg if I sat for more than 20 minutes. Progressively got worse over a period of time. Pretty soon I had to dash my car to the side of the road and jump out. I'd have to walk off the pain. Drive another 15 or 20 minutes and do the same thing.
One day, woke up to the most excruciating pain I could ever imagine. Couldnt understand why my brain wouldnt shut down and let me pass out. Went to Kaiser. Tried another epidural. Didnt do squat.
At that point, a neurosurgeon by the name of Todd Goldberg at Kaiser gave me the option of waiting another month for another epidural or to have a procedure called a microdiscectomy. Which grinds out part of the hardened disc that has been crushing the nerve. I couldnt stand the pain and opted for the surgery.
I have to say, it was a strange and scary situation after the surgery. The following morning, they gave me a walker and let me walk around the hospital section I was staying in. Was a difficult thing. I can't understand how a simple operation can practically take away your ability to walk, but it was very difficult, and was for a month or more after the surgery.
I could no longer ride a bicycle, due to the fact that I couldn't push down on my right leg when the pedal got to the top. I was able to walk, but I could barely lift my right leg off the ground and found myself face flat on the ground several times when my toe kicked a high spot in the sidewalk or a curb that I just didn't lift high enough to clear. Had little control of my right leg. Another odd thing was, the front of my leg where the pain had been, stayed numb for nearly a year. Finally, all my senses came back.
I never got back into bicycle riding, although I can now. But I did start walking. Nearly 7 miles each day. I worry about the weight and pain coming back. It has now been about 5 years since the surgery. I started hiking a year after it. Have carried loads nearly 50lbs on occasions (although I've cut that in half with lighter gear) and have never had a wince of pain since.
I will say that if you're in constant pain, you need a Dr who has sympathy. There are some that I've found to be worthless. I would not suggest an orthopedic surgeon. I'd try a neurosurgeon. You need to check into the options available to you. I don't know if Todd is still at Kaiser in Fontana and I don't carry Kaiser anymore, but I'd pay out of my pocket just to talk to him, if I had the problem again. He did me good.
I wish you well.
Directional marker in the pavillion at the summit.
The antennae farm on top of Mt. Wilson. There are also observatories up here as well.
The Mt. Wilson Trail. This 7-mile (or 7.5 if you prefer) takes you to the summit of Mt. Wilson (5,680 feet). This trail has an elevation change of 4,710 feet (approximately 780 feet per mile). It took 4 hours to reach the top and 3 hours to get back down. Overcast conditions ruled the day. Poison oak and ceanothus lined the upper and narrower sections of the trail. There was some scrambling along one portion of the trail as well as a couple of stream crossings. This was the most strenuous hike I have ever hiked in the San Gabriels. It felt like I hiked the 22-mile Mt. Whitney Trail minus the altitude (elevation change per mile is 572 feet).
The "Bruins" -- Dave and Jane. They live next to the San Gabriel Mountains and know the area very well. They will be going to Mt. Whitney on August 11 for a day-hike. It will be their first summit attempt. They shouldn't have any problems making it to the top.
